jcpinyan: o/` It's so nice on the Mountain of Tabor. No people in need, with faces to feed. When you've had it to here with your neighbor. It's so good to be here with Jesus. Over there, could that be Elijah? Over there, is that Moses I see? Such a lofty circle we move in! I can tell God's smiling on me! o/`
Evil Ffej: heh
jcpinyan: I must remember to burn a copy of this Marty Haugen stuff for you.
Evil Ffej: I've actually got a catholic doctrine question for you...
jcpinyan: I'm not sure I'm the right sibling, but shoot.
Evil Ffej: well, it's a personal response
jcpinyan: Ah, and open-ended question.
jcpinyan: Using at least two details from the text?
Evil Ffej: heh.
jcpinyan: sorry, it's my work
jcpinyan: You were saying?
Evil Ffej: how you do regard catholic doctrine that is tradition-based and not scripture-based?
jcpinyan: Um... that varies.
jcpinyan: I don't know what "doctrine" specifically means.
jcpinyan: I mean, there's stuff people have theorized over the years, like purgatory.
jcpinyan: But the position on that is kind of amorphous.
Evil Ffej: nah, I mean more serious things
Evil Ffej: like the Assumption of Mary
jcpinyan: Then there's other things, like Mary's perpetual viginity.
jcpinyan: Ah, or that part about Mary.
Evil Ffej: scripture is not about Mary. we don't know what happened to her. we don't know how old she lived to be, etc.
jcpinyan: Right, but there are traditions going way, way, way back.
jcpinyan: I don't know how I feel about the historicity of everything that is part of tradition, but I believe in what it means.
Evil Ffej: it's a very nice sentiment to think that God treated the mother of Jesus specially when she was close to death
Evil Ffej: yes, I believe in the sentiment.
Evil Ffej: but this is the very sort of thing that non-Catholic Christians claim is heresy or evil or whatever
jcpinyan: heh
jcpinyan: Mary is extraordinary.
Evil Ffej: I certainly don't think it effects a person's salvation either way if they do or don't believe Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, or if she entered dormition, or if she was only dead for a minute, or whatever.
Evil Ffej: I think it is important to believe that Mary was selected by God to be the mother of Jesus, was "full of grace", and therefore is different from nearly every other human ever
jcpinyan: I'll agree with that.
Evil Ffej: it's not that I find catholicism "tricky", but I do think there's a good chunk of "doctrine" whose focus is somewhat removed from Christ
Evil Ffej: it just comes up from time to time. a couple days ago I saw something explaining the scriptural passages related to the rosary in church, and it had Song of Songs 2:3-6 for "The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into Heaven"
Evil Ffej: and I was like, "oh?"
jcpinyan: There is definitely imagery in the old testament pointing toward Mary.
jcpinyan: pre-figuring her
jcpinyan: the imagery surrounding the arc of the covenant, etc.
Evil Ffej: the story arc of the covenant? ;-)
jcpinyan: lol
jcpinyan: I won't deny that some people get too distracted by marian things.
jcpinyan: But, I also think many people just breeze through church
jcpinyan: I think it's better to reach Christ through Mary than not reach Him at all.
Evil Ffej: oh, I won't argue against that
jcpinyan: There isn't really anything marian that I find objectionable.
jcpinyan: I mean, I don't say rosaries and I don't in general ask saints for intervention, but that doesn't mean there's anything bad about it.
Evil Ffej: I don't object to it. it's just not as "core faith" to me as other things.
jcpinyan: You should talk to Daddy about this over the weekend.
jcpinyan: *We*
Evil Ffej: heh.
jcpinyan: I am curious how this stuff was discussed in his RCIA classes.
jcpinyan: Drat. We should've had this conversation on GTalk.
Evil Ffej: I guess my big stumbling block is that if someone asked me why I believe the Eucharist is Christ, I could tell them how I read the institution of the Last Supper. if they asked why I believe Christ rose from the dead, I could point to scripture again. but if they ask me why I believe Mary was assumed bodily into heaven, I'd have to say, "it's a tradition of the church"
Evil Ffej: I'll save this
jcpinyan: Don't be ashamed of our tradition. It is directed by the Spirit.
jcpinyan: How was canon chosen, after all?
jcpinyan: It was traditionally used scriptures that, at some point, got officially accepted.
jcpinyan: I mean, what do you say when people say to you, "How can you think the Book of Tobit is the word of God?"
Evil Ffej: I suppose I hadn't considered it that way
jcpinyan: Um... not that people have specifically said that to me.
Evil Ffej: heh
jcpinyan: But, we do have whole texts that Protestants don't accept.
Evil Ffej: yeah, I was gonna mention that
jcpinyan: The the Orthodox have texts *we* don't accept.
Evil Ffej: and then there's gospels popping up left and right ;-)
jcpinyan: lol
jcpinyan: Exactly.
jcpinyan: Not everything written in that period is canon
Evil Ffej: the only only comment I have to make on the virginity of Mary, and I make this humorously, is that her marriage to Joseph was never consummated.